Ontario Sheep Farming: Insights from Dr Mark Ferguson
Sophie and Ferg catch up about Ferg’s recent trip to Ontario, Canada, where he visited 14 different sheep farming enterprises on his 10-day trip with Ontario Sheep Farmers. Highlights:- The differences in production systems, compared with New Zealand and Australia - Feeding strategies- Lambing systems- Health challenges- Market dynamics- The potential for genetic improvements in sheep breedingHead Shepherd is brought to you by neXtgen Agri International Limited. We help livestock fa...
Show Notes
Sophie and Ferg catch up about Ferg’s recent trip to Ontario, Canada, where he visited 14 different sheep farming enterprises on his 10-day trip with Ontario Sheep Farmers.
Highlights:
- The differences in production systems, compared with New Zealand and Australia
- Feeding strategies
- Lambing systems
- Health challenges
- Market dynamics
- The potential for genetic improvements in sheep breeding
Head Shepherd is brought to you by neXtgen Agri International Limited. We help livestock farmers get the most out of the genetics they farm with. Get in touch with us if you would like to hear more about how we can help you do what you do best: info@nextgenagri.com.
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Show Transcript
WEBVTT
00:00:01.260 --> 00:00:02.785 Welcome to the Head Shepherd Podcast.
00:00:02.785 --> 00:00:10.060 I'm your host, mark Ferguson, ceo here at NextGen Agri International, where we help livestock managers get the best out of their stock Before we get started.
00:00:10.060 --> 00:00:14.752 Thank you to our two fantastic sponsors for continuing to sponsor this podcast.
00:00:14.752 --> 00:00:22.990 Msd Animal Health is perhaps better known as Cooper's Animal Health in Australia and for their AllFlex range across the world with a comprehensive suite of animal health and management products.
00:00:22.990 --> 00:00:26.289 Heinegger is a one-stop shop for wool harvesting and animal fibre removal.
00:00:26.289 --> 00:00:33.168 The Heinegger team have a deep understanding of livestock agriculture, backed by Swiss engineering and a family business dedicated to manufacturing the best.
00:00:33.168 --> 00:00:38.847 We are grateful to our sponsors for their support, helping us bring Head Shepherd to you each week, and now it's time to get on with this week's episode.
00:00:39.939 --> 00:00:41.063 Welcome back to Head Shepherd.
00:00:41.063 --> 00:00:45.652 This week we thought we'd actually have a chat about my trip to Ontario.
00:00:45.652 --> 00:00:53.299 Sophie and I were having a bit of a yarn about it and we thought, well, we might as well press record and let the listeners listen along as well.
00:00:53.299 --> 00:00:57.649 So Sophie and I are sitting with a Mike H chatting about Ontario.
00:00:57.649 --> 00:01:06.727 Yeah, I was there for 10 or 11 days, put plenty of socials up so anyone that was following would have seen plenty of images and stuff, but yeah, it was a great experience.
00:01:06.727 --> 00:01:18.126 I was there at a great time of the year in terms of autumn, leaves and all that stuff to look at and yeah, I guess probably on reflection, like very different environment, very different production systems.
00:01:18.126 --> 00:01:29.474 But I don't know when you're sitting around in a hotel room as the clock strikes 12 and it's just the same as you, as if you're in australia or new zealand great people that farm sheep all over the world, it seems yeah, it's the joy of it.
00:01:29.515 --> 00:01:33.998 Really, like I, I spent a short time in canada and they're as close to kiwis as you're going to get.
00:01:34.099 --> 00:01:55.385 So, yeah, but I thought we'll start with the start and why you were invited over, um, and who invited you over so the interior sheep farmers, I guess an advocacy group or they're sort of, yeah, an industry group that are tasked with sort of promoting the industry and helping those within it across Ontario.
00:01:55.385 --> 00:02:00.206 So Anita O'Brien actually is a listener, hopefully she's listening along today.
00:02:00.206 --> 00:02:12.669 She was the one that suggested to Erin Morgan, who's the Executive Director at Ontario Sheep Farmers, to look me up, and so, yeah, I guess there was a couple of jobs.
00:02:12.669 --> 00:02:23.971 One was to critique three different businesses, their sort of breeding strategies, which is always a bit, I guess, confronting in front of 150 people talking about someone else's business.
00:02:23.971 --> 00:02:26.664 But I guess that's kind of what we do, so that's, that's fine.
00:02:26.664 --> 00:02:32.646 Um, and then and then a presentation as well, a keynote on uh profitability and sheep.
00:02:32.706 --> 00:02:49.068 I also spoke to the large flock operators group the morning before that uh, which was a group of I think they're cut off as 650 maybe sheep, and so, yeah, a lot of those are actually grazing outdoors, whereas a lot of others are also indoors and outdoors people in that group.
00:02:49.068 --> 00:03:08.513 But, yeah, I guess they're the more uh, the more that are primarily doing doing sheep production without other parts, that will have other parts of business as well, but but are genuine, genuinely producing sheep as for profit, whereas and then that goes across the group is a range from those with a small number of sheep through to those that have a combination of other incomes.
00:03:08.513 --> 00:03:18.087 I guess, like lots of places in australia, new zealand, where, where sheep don't pay all the bills, um, yeah, so they were the, they were the kind of core things to do.
00:03:18.087 --> 00:03:21.842 But to do that, um had the great opportunity to to jump the car.
00:03:21.842 --> 00:03:39.548 I went to 14 different farms, so erin was kindly chauffeured me around and, uh, yeah, so literally got off the plane at 10 30 at night after the longest thursday of my life, and then, I think, seven o'clock that next morning we're off and spent, yeah, ended up on two islands that first day, so, uh, which was pretty cool.
00:03:39.608 --> 00:03:44.405 So the first one was, yeah, like a boat to a boat out to see the sheep, and the second one a ferry out to see the sheep.
00:03:44.405 --> 00:03:50.414 But, um, yeah, so, and we went from there pretty much it was pretty similar to a next-gen trip.
00:03:50.414 --> 00:03:59.207 There wasn't a lot of time, downtime, it was getting the car and go and um, which was, which is good, like we like to get a lot done in a day I suppose we can.
00:03:59.448 --> 00:04:03.526 We can either run, you know, a quick farm by farm or breed by breed.
00:04:03.526 --> 00:04:16.201 I mean, you saw so much like it's, you had people in farms, you saw milking sheep, suffolks, boats to sheep, sheep grazing crop corn, it's yeah yeah, I guess the.
00:04:16.682 --> 00:04:24.665 What I'm amazed by was the, the number of ways you can do corn so this, so everyone, there's like I don't know eight different ways you can feed corn.
00:04:24.665 --> 00:04:27.892 So obviously corn grain, and then there's corn cob silage.
00:04:27.892 --> 00:04:41.149 That's where they take harvest, just the corn cob, and then grind the entire, just the cob, into a, so it's got the moisture, obviously before it's dried, and then ensile that, and so that's quite a good feed, quite a good balance feed.
00:04:41.149 --> 00:04:59.130 There's obviously corn silage or whole, whole crop silage that we'd be used to, and then sort of two versions of that, one more grain than the other, and then distillers grain, which is corn, with the obviously starch removed through distillation, um, and so that's actually high protein, I guess it's sort of 22 protein and quite good fat.
00:04:59.130 --> 00:05:02.148 So it's quite a good creep feed and really good lamb tucker, uh.
00:05:02.327 --> 00:05:03.632 And then what else we got?
00:05:03.632 --> 00:05:07.725 Um, yeah, then we saw a couple people grazing whole, whole crop corn.
00:05:07.725 --> 00:05:13.946 So you sort of start off before the, before the cob was fully formed, and so they're sort of grazing I guess.
00:05:13.946 --> 00:05:17.779 I guess like a whole, like our normal sort of break free gazing.
00:05:17.779 --> 00:05:22.783 You're grazing, you're doing in new zealand, and then by the end of it, as the corn's maturing, they're only eating the cob.
00:05:22.783 --> 00:05:33.065 And yeah, I've never seen sheep demolish something so quickly as jumping in a crop of whole, whole corn and and they know they've got to push it down to get to the, to get to the cob.
00:05:33.086 --> 00:05:40.076 So, um, that was pretty interesting, but I guess that's more normal how we would handle, uh, how we would feed off forages, I suppose.
00:05:40.076 --> 00:05:59.021 But yeah, definitely, obviously, land is at a premium, expensive land often and yeah, cash cropping so soybeans and corn being for ethanol production as well as stock feeds has pressure on grazing, we saw.
00:05:59.021 --> 00:06:04.946 But then there's a few people who are pasture-based and yeah, I guess one of the.
00:06:04.946 --> 00:06:19.446 You kind of think, oh, it's going to be similar to NZ, but a lot of these areas go from sort of minus 30 winters through to kind of plus 30 in humid summers and so pasture growth goes from zero for a long period of time to like 200 kilos a day.
00:06:19.446 --> 00:06:31.406 So, like the ability to stock to that, to have enough animals to eat, yeah, to get through the winter but then be able to eat that amount of feed is obviously impossible.
00:06:31.406 --> 00:06:35.420 So, yeah, it's quite a challenge to handle that.
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:43.468 I can't gauge on how cold, because you were saying that you know you were getting a boat out to these sheep on lakes and in winter the lakes just froze up entirely.
00:06:43.649 --> 00:06:44.511 You could walk over them.
00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:48.005 Yeah, yeah lakes, and in winter the lakes just froze up entirely.
00:06:48.005 --> 00:06:49.711 You could walk over them, yeah, yeah.
00:06:49.730 --> 00:07:05.309 So you know queenstown or you know tequipa froze, yeah yeah, yeah, exactly, and they're like these lakes, uh, like these are the great lakes, these are enormous and those things can freeze completely which just blows my mind, or not completely, I suppose the top freeze enough to be able to drive on um for big chunks of it, and that yeah, so, yeah.
00:07:05.309 --> 00:07:13.142 So the first um island we went to, which was matt and liz's um, and I don't know if they own all the island, but a big chunk of it anyway.
00:07:13.142 --> 00:07:21.060 The uh, yeah, so they, yeah, obviously boat over in the summer, but then can four-wheeler, like you can drive on top of it over there in the winter, but which has some bonuses.
00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:31.994 But he talked about how, like sometimes, if it's not quite, if it's sort of starting to melt, you can kind of see a bit of a wave forming in the ice as you're driving in the four-wheeler, and I don't think that's something I'd want to see.
00:07:31.994 --> 00:07:32.819 That's not something.
00:07:34.745 --> 00:07:40.740 Yeah, yeah and so do they have sheep outside in this, like, are they all out, some of them outside in winter?
00:07:41.161 --> 00:07:47.365 yeah, so that's uh, so that's, I guess, ice, and they're feeding on top of snow.
00:07:47.406 --> 00:07:52.783 Basically, yeah, so um and feeding out those silages they're making silage and yeah, that sort of stuff.
00:07:52.803 --> 00:08:26.733 So yeah, um, so that's a small number that yeah, would feed through well, through the winter, um, but yeah, basically I guess more like a kiwi winter, but minus 25 degrees or minus or further 30 degrees cooler, but yeah, feeding some of those high-energy corn and stuff to keep things ticking over, a lot of yeah, like it seems insane, but they seem to be able to do it and then get them out onto the pasture as it starts to, as you start to thaw out and things start to grow.
00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:34.071 I know that there's quite a few Canadians that do sort of accelerated lambing and whatnot like production-wise.
00:08:34.071 --> 00:08:36.307 How comparable was it to here?
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:51.421 Yeah, so your pasture-based folks are more single, like one lambing, and then as you go into intensive like a lot of farms that sheep don't go outside at all or sort of go out into yards close to outside yards but not too far away.
00:08:51.421 --> 00:08:54.427 The they're then into accelerated systems.
00:08:54.427 --> 00:08:57.013 So, um, quite high for country levels, so lots of.
00:08:57.013 --> 00:09:08.164 So they are the reto arcot, which is a canadian developed breed which has got fin and frisian and random stuff in there, but yeah, I guess selected for for high for candy, lots of multiples.
00:09:08.164 --> 00:09:23.841 Um, so some of those doing kind of three lambs per year, like 300 lambing and then we'll, and then obviously the fall lambing, which is, yeah, so the spring lambing they do that and then the fall lambing is is a bit less as you get the photo period working against you.
00:09:24.182 --> 00:09:29.947 Um, but they'll be, yeah, sort sort of accelerated, like some on the five-star system, some on other variations of.
00:09:29.947 --> 00:09:54.509 Yeah, just kind of always thinking like some of them lamb five, six times a year, obviously not the same sheep, but yeah, so it's kind of, yeah, it's all intense I guess when, which is sort of, yeah, it's obviously hard to work out in your head how that all works, but I guess, once you're in, once you've got a sheep and you're going to feed it everything it needs, it may as well either be pregnant or lactating is kind of the theory.
00:09:54.509 --> 00:09:55.020 How old?
00:09:55.081 --> 00:09:55.884 are they weaning over?
00:09:55.924 --> 00:09:57.129 there Quite early.
00:09:57.129 --> 00:10:03.128 So more 50, 60 days, yeah, like 50 days, I think, is probably.
00:10:03.128 --> 00:10:23.028 I don't know what the average was, to be honest, but yeah, but certainly when they're young, like they do, particularly those indoor systems will have like a creep available from a couple of weeks old and so the animals are already kind of undergrown and then weaned and then stuck again obviously just bore further corn into them.
00:10:23.028 --> 00:10:42.154 So, yeah, quite fast growth for the genetics probably aren't super growthy, from what I can work out through a few size of venues and looking up their data, but probably comparable to New Zealand but not comparable to Australian sort of terminals and yeah, but still getting some really good growth rates through, yeah, concentrated feeding.
00:10:42.196 --> 00:10:44.729 Obviously Big issues with worms.
00:10:44.729 --> 00:10:46.648 There's not a lot of actives available.
00:10:46.648 --> 00:11:12.269 Yeah, I guess what I quickly realised is how many things that we have that they don't have, like through veterinary products, drenches, vaccinations, a range of things, and kind of stopped, started off sort of commenting about, oh, it'd be better if you had this and this and this, but quickly realised that that's not very helpful to people to tell them the stuff that they can't have because of, obviously, market size.
00:11:12.269 --> 00:11:17.485 People aren't willing to go through the approvals process for small markets like your.
00:11:17.485 --> 00:11:19.130 Big corporations need to sell stuff.
00:11:19.581 --> 00:11:36.447 So, yeah, a lot of which is a bit limiting, but I think, yeah, I guess what I took away from that is that genetics is going to be sort of number one, two and three on the solutions list for a lot of their problems, because if you don't have the chemicals or the vaccinations or whatever, then you're going to have to select for the resistant ones.
00:11:36.447 --> 00:11:39.690 So barber's pole big battle in those.
00:11:39.690 --> 00:11:50.504 Yeah, so anyone grazing outdoors obviously can get a fair load up of larvae and then that obviously, without appropriate treatments, can cause a fair bit of grief.
00:11:50.504 --> 00:12:05.227 Coccidia are the other parasitic problem and getting outbreaks in barns was like one of the, I think, probably saying coccidia out loud amongst an Ontario sheep farmer, putting a shiver down their spine.
00:12:05.227 --> 00:12:19.706 I think that's probably their number one concern and I was there in kind of yeah in fall autumn and a really good week 16, 17 degrees and blue sky, lovely, and everyone was telling me how lucky I was.
00:12:20.441 --> 00:12:32.990 At the time it was actually snowing back in New Zealand which was yeah, both out of season, you can imagine that some of those barns get quite cold and humid and wet and damp and imagine that there's some health.
00:12:32.990 --> 00:12:36.193 Well, there are some health issues associated with that.
00:12:37.099 --> 00:12:40.706 Yeah, so to finish, we'll finish that production and then we'll talk about genetics.
00:12:40.706 --> 00:12:43.248 So how heavy are they finishing them?
00:12:43.248 --> 00:12:45.802 What money are they getting from the lambs over there?
00:12:46.744 --> 00:12:50.331 uh, so yeah, out to 110 pounds.
00:12:50.331 --> 00:12:54.400 So I had to do the 2.2 conversion, um, flat out all the time.
00:12:54.400 --> 00:13:01.640 So sort of a 25 kilo carcass, uh, was, is the sort of aim for most people, some a few a bit lighter.
00:13:01.640 --> 00:13:09.889 The one the one processor that presented at the convention was I think they sort of capped it at 27.
00:13:09.889 --> 00:13:12.249 You wouldn't get paid any more over 27 kilos.
00:13:12.249 --> 00:13:14.888 Yeah, so fast growth or pushed to that.
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:26.990 Some sold direct, a lot sold through what they call sale barns, so sale yards and all entire some males with tails on.
00:13:26.990 --> 00:13:28.052 But yeah, no, yeah, no males.
00:13:28.052 --> 00:13:39.369 Well, not many males castrated, which I'll talk about before the podcast is out, and yeah, so that most people were sort of no real, I guess not the structure that you've got here.
00:13:39.369 --> 00:13:44.184 So not much, not many, not that great availability, just sell store lambs or whatever, like a lot.
00:13:44.184 --> 00:13:56.148 Most people are finishing some of the pasture guys were, um, were had a sort of custom feeders that were taken from from them, but a lot of people were sort of taking everything through to to finish product just on the scale of things and I mean the price.
00:13:56.327 --> 00:14:00.379 I think it's, um, yeah, kind of depending on.
00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:15.368 Obviously it fluctuates a bit, but they're kind of over 10 bucks a kilo canadian, so probably more like 12, so 300, like a 25 dealer, 25 kilo carcass making sort of 300 canadian which is whatever, that is 363, 73, 80 or something.
00:14:15.368 --> 00:14:16.551 So plenty of um.
00:14:16.551 --> 00:14:19.719 So yeah, high, high value lamb um.
00:14:19.719 --> 00:14:24.207 So I guess that kind of explains how you can go intensive if you're getting that sort of price.
00:14:24.207 --> 00:14:25.350 Even mutton was like.
00:14:25.350 --> 00:14:30.090 There wasn't much depreciation on mutton, they were getting that similar sort of money or even better.
00:14:31.640 --> 00:14:35.240 Their import costs obviously considerably higher with the barns and stuff Even.
00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:37.589 Still, that's a nice pretty penny.
00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:40.585 Yeah, so I think it.
00:14:40.585 --> 00:14:41.788 I mean I don't.
00:14:41.788 --> 00:14:43.350 Yeah, there's not.
00:14:43.350 --> 00:14:44.302 Yeah, I think it.
00:14:44.302 --> 00:14:55.672 Obviously the combination of the feeding and that price meant that probably, yeah, profitability probably ends up being similar to what we are Not sure.
00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:57.366 Obviously didn't get into that level of detail.
00:14:57.366 --> 00:15:03.009 But the other thing I just want to mention on production is quite a few grazing under solar panels.
00:15:03.009 --> 00:15:05.835 So Chris Moore, lindsay Smith and a few others we caught up with were grazing under solar panels.
00:15:05.835 --> 00:15:07.609 So Chris Moore, lindsay Smith and a few others we caught up with were grazing under solar panels.
00:15:07.609 --> 00:15:12.408 So in that model you get paid for taking the grass away and obviously the sheep are a bit of a bonus.
00:15:12.408 --> 00:15:14.105 Sounds like a perfect model.
00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:23.149 There is challenges with that because you've got to obviously break fence through panels and shift stuff around panels and there's no water on a lot of those panels areas and stuff.
00:15:23.149 --> 00:15:23.883 So kind of a fair bit of work.
00:15:23.883 --> 00:15:26.072 Well, there's no water on a lot of those panels areas and stuff, so kind of a fair bit of work.
00:15:26.072 --> 00:15:29.105 Well, there is a lot of work but you get the benefit of, I guess, well paid to graze it as well.
00:15:29.105 --> 00:15:52.830 But I think that's going to be a big opportunity across most of our production areas, like for those areas where panels are going in, there's a lot of pasture underneath the panels and, yeah, the big production challenge was coyotes or coyotes depending on which person you ask because those things, yeah, will kill any class of stock and everything.
00:15:52.830 --> 00:16:00.977 Yeah, the challenge with grazing outside is both the winter, but more often is the dogs or the coyotes.
00:16:00.998 --> 00:16:03.615 sorry, oh thanks, museums seem so easy.
00:16:03.889 --> 00:16:10.518 One thing I did probably challenge a bit and have since, in my head at least, is how many rams went out.
00:16:10.518 --> 00:16:13.057 There's lots of, because people have rams.
00:16:13.057 --> 00:16:26.138 I kind of put them all out across ewes and yeah, I think yeah, there's definitely over-ram use, as in lots like down to probably I don't know one ram per 20 ewes often, and I mean they're all in close proximity.
00:16:26.138 --> 00:16:32.802 We know that a ram in New Zealand will get 100, 120 ewes on a hill, let alone in a yard where they can see everyone.
00:16:32.802 --> 00:16:40.676 So yeah, I think the kind of concept was that a RAM can only handle a few years a day, like two or three years a day, whereas we know that's higher than that.
00:16:41.130 --> 00:16:44.393 So yeah, and I think everyone's going oh, it doesn't matter, we've got the RAMs anyway.
00:16:44.393 --> 00:16:47.081 But the genetic merit of all those RAMs isn't equal.
00:16:47.081 --> 00:17:04.737 So if you've only used the top three rather than the top 15, it means your genetic gain, like your selection intensity, goes up, your average genetic merit goes up and your selection genetic gain should go up.
00:17:04.737 --> 00:17:06.602 So yeah, I think there's a definite scope there to reduce the number of rams used and sort of that.
00:17:06.602 --> 00:17:09.528 I mean I think there's a bit of an excuse that you just chuck them all in, because then you don't have to worry about feeding that rampant at the moment because they're all in the use.
00:17:09.528 --> 00:17:17.103 But but I think, but I think, I think that, um, yeah, I reckon there'll be some lost, lost opportunity there so we'll get on to genetics.
00:17:17.143 --> 00:17:18.384 I guess that's what we're all here for.
00:17:18.384 --> 00:17:22.921 You saw quite a few sheep breeds, if you've been following for social media.
00:17:24.930 --> 00:17:48.736 Yeah, I suppose what you observed, I guess, of how they're managing their genetics over there and the potential, I guess yeah, and I guess that I mean it's easier for me to comment on genetics than production because the production variation is like it's so different and I think they've got, yeah, like they have great sort of care around their nutrition and stuff.
00:17:48.736 --> 00:17:52.059 So I think that bit, there wasn't a lot to say.
00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:55.621 But yeah, genetics, I think there's still plenty of opportunity.
00:17:55.621 --> 00:17:59.181 I guess the breeding happened sort of in the 60s and 70s.
00:17:59.181 --> 00:18:04.932 They developed these couple of breeds like a Canadian Arcot and a Rideau Arcot and then the sort of.
00:18:05.092 --> 00:18:21.749 So the Dorset has been sort of well, they've selected more maternal Dorsets, I suppose, so lacking less carcass and more, yeah, I guess, more carcass than a Rideau, but generally less carcass than what some of the terminals we'd see getting around these days and a dorset that we would have as a terminal.
00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:23.053 So, yeah, sort of a maternal dorset.
00:18:23.053 --> 00:18:35.012 So a lot of people were um had a cross of dorsets and ritos, um like an f1 or a or a fixed composite with a few other breeds in there, um which I thought they were good shape, um, they were big shape, the.
00:18:35.012 --> 00:18:47.442 I think one of the challenges I think in their industry will be kind of how to balance that and the reto sort of is that like a small maternal with that's highly fecund and then hit it with a guy with a bigger terminal or whatever?
00:18:47.442 --> 00:18:52.569 But yes, I think there's, there's opportunity there to, I guess, maybe more efficient on some of that stuff.
00:18:52.569 --> 00:18:57.467 I think the big opportunities are around, like the selection for coccidia resistance it's.
00:18:57.467 --> 00:19:06.396 I found one paper that was correlated with worm resistance and so but no one, like no assist counting and stuff to work out, yeah, like there didn't seem to be.
00:19:06.517 --> 00:19:08.000 I don't know anyone in the world that's doing that.
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:14.075 But I think that would be a game changer for that industry if we could find some um, some selection sort of processes.
00:19:14.075 --> 00:19:24.838 They do um, they have a, a pneumonia, progressive pneumonia, um problem which is caused by maddie visner, which is a virus, I assume.
00:19:24.838 --> 00:19:31.174 Um, and yeah, it's, it's a, a major problem for them.
00:19:31.174 --> 00:19:40.682 So you get and so and there is a gene test they've developed for um that's been developed for that, which I think, from what I can find is actually could be a bit effective.
00:19:40.682 --> 00:19:47.372 Like there's a couple of haplotypes that are very susceptible to that disease and some that are less so Scrapy.
00:19:47.372 --> 00:19:51.460 They do a lot of testing for, or some people do a lot of testing for, genetic resistance to scrapy.
00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:55.992 So a couple of gene tests which people are using to different levels, which have shown a bit of promise.
00:19:55.992 --> 00:20:06.580 And then, yeah, I guess, like most industries, there's sort of some people trying pretty hard to measure stuff and using Genovese, which is their genetic evaluation system.
00:20:06.580 --> 00:20:09.940 Probably one of the challenges was that Genovese doesn't have heaps of traits.
00:20:09.940 --> 00:20:16.217 You can imagine maybe Sill and Landplan 25 years ago or whatever, before, a lot of the traits were developed like sort of.
00:20:16.217 --> 00:20:22.704 Some of the core traits are there, but at the scale the industry is out, it's difficult to invest in all the different.
00:20:22.704 --> 00:20:25.939 Yeah, to develop new trades into those evaluation systems.
00:20:25.939 --> 00:20:28.317 But yeah, I think there's probably.
00:20:28.317 --> 00:20:42.339 Yeah, I mean the sort of comment was, if you go to 2,000 farms in Canada you'll find 2,000 different production systems, which is kind of true, but then kind of isn't there's sort of core similar things?
00:20:42.339 --> 00:20:46.040 I think around genetics there's a bit of haphazard stuff going on.
00:20:46.040 --> 00:20:48.557 I could use this round this year and this one next year.
00:20:48.557 --> 00:20:52.861 So I think, yeah, probably opportunity to tidy that up a little bit through.
00:20:52.861 --> 00:21:10.615 I'm a bit of a fan of maternal sort of composites and some of the ones I saw there, like some of the combination of Rideau and Dorset, but then it'd been and they'd put a bit of New Zealand composite in there as well and a bit of New Zealand Cootworth in different places.
00:21:10.615 --> 00:21:17.881 So yeah, I think there is opportunity in there to probably to make sure that the genetics are tailored for the system.
00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:22.460 I think obviously you need a different youth or a grazing system than you do for a barn system.
00:21:22.460 --> 00:21:28.232 I think I know I haven't done the modeling, but we need to do the modeling on how big mature size needs to be in those those systems.
00:21:28.232 --> 00:21:32.471 It seems to be a lot of people were sort of running everything the same, whereas I don't know.
00:21:32.471 --> 00:21:33.994 I feel like there's an opportunity for a small number at that for country.
00:21:33.994 --> 00:21:36.300 Like you can turn over a lot of ewe lamb, so I think there's an opportunity for a small number At Fecundity.
00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:43.037 You can turn over a lot of ewe lambs, so I think there's an opportunity to have a small number of maternals and then lots of animals going to terminals, which was something I was harping on a bit while I was there.
00:21:43.037 --> 00:21:48.162 But yeah, I think that would be interesting to see how that rolls.
00:21:48.162 --> 00:21:51.099 There's no preg scanning for multiples there.
00:21:51.099 --> 00:21:52.531 There's preg scanning but no one.
00:21:53.914 --> 00:22:03.211 I think the accuracy, from what I could tell, the accuracy wasn't sufficient with the people local people to get accurate singles and twins and that and a few people doing it themselves, that sort of stuff.
00:22:03.211 --> 00:22:05.999 So I don't know, I felt like that was a bit of a to me.
00:22:05.999 --> 00:22:12.092 Managing that level of energy and all that sort of stuff and not knowing who's a single, twin, triplet would be a, would be a severe challenge.
00:22:12.092 --> 00:22:20.803 Obviously not many singles in those highly for gun breeds, but but having twins and triplets and in the same group and then yeah, so I think I think that stuff was.
00:22:20.803 --> 00:22:33.932 Yeah, I couldn't really get my head around how you could manage energy appropriately with without, because I knew a lot of them were doing quite targeted breeding, like they're really good with their short matings and a lot of people using cedars in the off season and stuff.
00:22:33.932 --> 00:22:35.153 So they were probably really well.
00:22:35.153 --> 00:22:37.679 They definitely were good at sort of synchronising lambings and stuff.
00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:44.269 But then I feel like you get the full value out of that if you knew who was a twin, who was a triplet and a few things like that.
00:22:44.269 --> 00:22:48.538 But yeah, that would be.
00:22:48.538 --> 00:22:51.973 Yeah, there's plenty of things to reasons why that's hard.
00:22:51.973 --> 00:22:55.098 I suppose Like it's because of all those different lambings.
00:22:55.098 --> 00:23:05.125 Like your preg scan would be full time on the road and while it's not quite the expanse of Australia, there is still plenty of yeah, like plenty of area they would need to cover.
00:23:05.125 --> 00:23:08.992 So and and for small groups, which would make it fairly difficult to assault the economic.
00:23:08.992 --> 00:23:11.444 So you can kind of see what the where the challenges are coming from.
00:23:12.188 --> 00:23:31.116 Yeah, the other thing I was keen to mention was probably probably at the convention we had lamb for the dinner and then the next day we had like a pulled lamb shoulder and, without sounding offensive, it's not the best lamb I've ever eaten and I kind of got well.
00:23:31.116 --> 00:23:40.212 I kind of, I guess, reminded me that perception is everything really Like for the canadian lamb eater.
00:23:40.212 --> 00:23:41.717 That was good lamb and was.
00:23:41.717 --> 00:23:42.578 It was very tender.
00:23:42.578 --> 00:23:48.948 Um, you could definitely taste I could taste anyway the ram taint and and it was quite fatty, being corn fed.
00:23:48.948 --> 00:23:50.999 So it was a very different kind of almost.
00:23:50.999 --> 00:23:52.910 If you didn't tell me it was lamb, I wouldn't have known what I was eating.
00:23:53.230 --> 00:23:59.676 Um, oh and definitely the pulled lamb shoulder was definitely because of the fat cooked into the meat.
00:23:59.676 --> 00:24:09.398 You could definitely taste the ram taint and which, yeah, it's not something that I enjoy, but obviously if you've grown up with that sweat taste then that's fine.
00:24:09.398 --> 00:24:23.477 And a lot of the market in Canada are cultural lamb eaters, so from the Middle East or subcontinent or whatever, and particularly Middle East, where often they want entire animals and that's what they're used to eating, so that you can kind of see why, that's how, how that that rolls.
00:24:23.477 --> 00:24:32.423 But it certainly was, yeah, a bit, yeah, a bit different and, uh, for me and and yeah, I guess I guess.
00:24:32.483 --> 00:24:34.167 Yeah, it's um interesting.
00:24:34.167 --> 00:24:37.759 Just you get used to eating it in a particular way and tasting it in a particular way.
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:42.351 But I would struggle to.
00:24:42.351 --> 00:24:47.383 Yeah, I can't imagine new lamb eaters who haven't eaten anything with rame taint, sort of tasting that and thinking it was amazing.
00:24:47.383 --> 00:24:48.464 But I don't know.
00:24:49.531 --> 00:24:56.647 Well, I grew up not farming and so whatever meat we got was probably cheap and I didn't like lamb growing up.
00:24:56.647 --> 00:24:57.199 I thought it tasted horrible.
00:24:57.199 --> 00:24:58.074 My sister still really didn't like lamb growing up.
00:24:58.074 --> 00:24:58.664 I thought it tasted horrible.
00:24:58.664 --> 00:25:02.928 My sister still really doesn't like it to this day and it's probably because we were eating rams.
00:25:02.928 --> 00:25:15.914 We weren't eating the best stuff and and even like saying that we we're gap rated here, which is a global animal partnership, which means we don't castrate our ram lambs and we send them over to america to go to whole foods.
00:25:15.914 --> 00:25:25.317 And I just tried to think who's trying lamb for the first time from whole foods, thinking they're buying a nice expensive cut of fancy new zealand meat and it's an eight month old ram.
00:25:27.421 --> 00:25:55.394 Yeah, yeah, you know the works are still taking offers and they want it, but as someone that picks a nice fat hogget, dry hogget with a long tail to eat, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think testosterone yeah, yeah, definitely, and yeah, and you kind of I mean there's intensive systems, probably 10 growth advantage from a ram versus weather, so you can kind of there's lots of reasons why you would do it, but I think, yeah and I guess that.
00:25:55.394 --> 00:26:10.960 So there's that, plus the corn fed versus grass fed, um, like I think the I mean a lot of australian lamb is is feedlocked finish, but it's been on, so it's a very pale mate, obviously very young mate um, because it's killed early.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:18.106 So anyway, just different um and very tender though like um, so no trouble there, like, but yeah, anyway, it's just.
00:26:18.106 --> 00:26:23.198 Yeah, it's just intriguing, uh definitely one more question.
00:26:23.338 --> 00:26:26.791 Well, no, not just one, but I should ask you what the last thing you changed your mind about was.
00:26:26.791 --> 00:26:28.494 Isn't that the end?
00:26:28.494 --> 00:26:34.491 But, um, you visited a sheep dairy and that's my thing, and yeah, just thoughts and opinions.
00:26:34.491 --> 00:26:43.064 You mentioned clean points and the breeding of them and the redos and stuff yeah, certainly, uh, clean, yes, clean, pointed shape.
00:26:43.104 --> 00:26:48.079 Vince and heather are also doing a great job of that on their, their redos as well.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:49.490 So heather does actually most that breeding.
00:26:49.490 --> 00:26:54.692 I think vince does all the feeding but uh, yeah, getting really made a lot of movement there.
00:26:54.692 --> 00:26:58.619 Um and yeah, so that was, that was interesting.
00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:01.771 But the um, yeah, the sheep dairy was was cool.
00:27:01.771 --> 00:27:05.220 So it's a sort of a relatively fledgling industry in canada.
00:27:05.259 --> 00:27:16.691 So, um, this is their form of co-op, uh, and they're doing, doing good things, have brought in the different people pronounce differently, but the corn or whatever, the french, french dairy genetics and, uh, which are clean points.
00:27:18.114 --> 00:27:29.428 And yeah, I reckon, I don't know, they're a nice-looking ewe, I reckon nice-looking rams, clean points, they don't need to do any teat spraying or anything or teat dipping because there's no wool around the teats or whatever.
00:27:30.090 --> 00:27:35.960 And yeah, just a really, really good-looking animal, obviously high performance, selected by the French for milk production.
00:27:35.960 --> 00:28:02.538 So, yeah, doing all barn fed and mated and getting long I don't know, like I haven't spent a lot of time in that industry, but getting quite long lactations and, um, I think sort of over a kilo a day right through for a long, for a long lactation which, sorry, later today, which I think some of the kiwi sort of versions I've heard here get down to quite low yields and lactation is not lasting that long, but obviously the corn would help with that.
00:28:02.538 --> 00:28:09.338 But, yeah, mating while still lactating, yeah, sort of all sorts of stuff that you need to do to keep things ticking over.
00:28:09.338 --> 00:28:23.679 Finishing all their, yeah, so, bringing all males and females through as lambs and then on to, obviously, to milk powder robots, and and then and then on to creep and go, and then on and then fed through the production production system.
00:28:23.778 --> 00:28:40.084 So, um, yeah, it was it's amazing how productive people can be when land value yeah, yeah, yeah you know when you've got to make it work, you get yeah, yeah, yeah and certainly, um, yeah, I think you can see that industry growing.
00:28:40.125 --> 00:29:03.519 Obviously, if there's, I mean, sheep milk products are awesome and yeah, so quite a few people are sort of starting to shift over to dairy rather than to meat production and yeah, so the one I went to, I think it was maybe 16 a side herringbone, yeah, rapid exit sort of platform, so yeah, and obviously a lot of dairies are inside as well over there.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:05.637 So we went past some pretty fancy looking dairy barns.
00:29:05.637 --> 00:29:13.076 We didn't go into any of them but did see an indoor beef feedlot, yeah, which some of the fattest cattle ever.
00:29:13.076 --> 00:29:18.118 Great, he was just grabbing, he was just trading, so he was just grabbing.
00:29:18.118 --> 00:29:19.259 He was just trading, so he was just grabbing.
00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:25.961 He was sort of grabbing whatever was available at the sale yards, almost like just stuff, and then bringing them through in groups and feeding them.
00:29:25.961 --> 00:29:27.477 So sort of an opportunistic feeder.
00:29:27.630 --> 00:29:58.038 But yeah, really really nice setup, a lot of focus on ventilation in those barns and making sure that the air movement is right, and so big fans and some fancy, fancy, fancy, fancy sort of computer systems which shut the shutters down on one side if it's running from that angle and wind's coming this way, and yeah, so like fully computerized and and high tech, some of those, some of those barns others were like the bank barns, which is your kind of traditional um, put a barn on the side of a hill and put the feet upstairs and the animals downstairs, so so they're.
00:29:58.038 --> 00:30:00.923 Quite I don't know if I'd want to spend too much of my life working in one of them.
